Posts by drew sagan

25

Why does every prophecy has to have two (or more) completions?

by teel in

you know the standard jw doctrine, babylon the great, fall of jerusalem, kingship of david, jonah's life you name it, it has to have a "bigger completion" later.

some of these are actually mentioned in the bible - jesus being the bigger jonah, revelations mentioning the fall of babylon the great many years after the actuall babylon fell, jerusalem falling to babylon was just a precursor to jerusalem falling to the romans, which was just a precursor to... (what now?

meh... is old age creeping upon me?

drew sagan

I was thinking of the sheer number of times the JW's have gone through the Revelation book. I guess most of that goes right over the head of someone studying with JW's (?)

I tend to believe that the Watchtower purposefully makes those books confusing. I remember being an unbaptized publisher, reading through the revelation book. I understood none of it. I believe I actually read the book before me and my study conductor came to the information about the 'faithful slave' in the Knowledge book. When we went over that FDS stuff, I had no idea what he was talking about, even though I had actually read that revelation book! It just goes right over your head.

I can only use my own experience, but from what I remember a new convert is so fixated on the "important things" (i.e. hellfire, trinity, paradise, ect) that anything complicated or strange gets set aside. You really don't notice the strange stuff.

I agree with your analysis, but I've looked at it a little bit differently. From my perspective, it's the buy-the-whole-ranch-because-you-like-the-cow syndrome. A potential convert becomes throughly schooled in the flaws of the major Christian denominations. Long-held articles of faith such as hellfire, the trinity, heavenly hope for all the faithful are attacked from every angle while the flaws in JW doctrine are ignored. The potential convert becomes convinced that all of the other major religions have it wrong, so therefore JWs must have "the truth."

I agree with your assessment, it is basically how I felt when I converted.

I will add that the potential convert probably never believes that the JWs have "flaws" per se. New converts tend to be idealistic, something that is exploited by the JWs. They buy the argument that there are simply things that they don't understand at the moment, but that understanding will come in time. These items get "put on the shelf" for further consideration at a future point in time (which never actually happens).

27

For those who joined as adults

by brainwashed-from-birth in

jw
friends

i was raised one of jw.

before i was born my dad joined when two jws came to our house around the same time my grandpa (my dad's dad) died.

i remember my mom telling me that my dad took this very hard.

drew sagan

and two, they had hardly read the Bible, were not really aware of what their own religions taught, and found that the witnesses seemed to have all the answers.

My experience exactly. I was 15 years old when I first got involved with JWs, so I had very little experience in dealing with such a sophisticated group. They seemed so intelligent. The answers they gave made more sense that what I had heard from other religions. Thus, they were able to persuade me.

27

For those who joined as adults

by brainwashed-from-birth in

jw
friends

i was raised one of jw.

before i was born my dad joined when two jws came to our house around the same time my grandpa (my dad's dad) died.

i remember my mom telling me that my dad took this very hard.

drew sagan

Because your Dad was convinced of the arguments presented to him by the Witnesses, their publications, and meetings.

The "in-home" bible study allows JWs to slowly convince a person of many things, argument by argument. In my own case (I joined as a young adult), the deeper I got involved the harder it was to back out. I had already "agreed" that certain things were true, and thus recieved additional pressure to make these truths motivate further agreement.

In essence, it is a mental trap. The arguments JWs use are not very good at all, but if they are the only people you are reallly listening to you will begin to agree with them. Eventually a person becomes attached to the agruments and ideas that they were taught, and becomes fearful of letting go. Even though a good bit of it doesn't make sense, enough of it appears to make sense.

24

Your Opinion Please: Do GB members believe what they say?

by EverAStudent in

jw
friends

in your own opinion: do the governing board members believe their own prophecies, stories, and articles?

.

do you think they are true believers in the core religion or fakers simply behaving as profiteers?.

drew sagan

I am a bit more cynical. I think many GB members don't believe a good chunk of JW exegesis.

I would argue that they most likely compartmentalize WTS belief into things that are "truth" and that which is debatable. Issues such as the trinity, non-exsistance of hellfire, paradise earth constitute a tradition of untouchable doctrines and agruments. The case is closed on these topics as far as they are concerned.

There is another portion of doctrine that is up for grabs. Whether or not these things change, the original "truths" do not. It is probably argued that the original truths outweigh anything that could be bad in the other doctirnes.

So there sure are things they do not belive, but there certainly are things they hold dear as well. They justify their own power, as well as ability to pick and choose doctirne, on the basis of the "original truths".

4

Curiosity Didn't Kill the Cat

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

that old saying your parents told you when they were too tired to explain anymore.

sort of sticks with you.. did you know that curiosity doesn't kill you at all?

(by the way, what does kill you is listening to bad or false advice and information) it is the impetus for future learning.

drew sagan

Somehow I don't think that's the response AllTimeJeff was looking for

Your point reminds me of something I noticed. We commonly use aphorisms, such as the one you mentioned, regardless of whether or not they contradict other ones that we use. For example:

He who hesitates is lost vs. Fools rush in

Two heads are better than one vs. too many cooks spoil the broth

In reality, these things usually provide little insight into the way we live our lives. They may provide a quick way of refering to something after it has happened, but don't help in making a decision before that something has occured.

25

Why does every prophecy has to have two (or more) completions?

by teel in

you know the standard jw doctrine, babylon the great, fall of jerusalem, kingship of david, jonah's life you name it, it has to have a "bigger completion" later.

some of these are actually mentioned in the bible - jesus being the bigger jonah, revelations mentioning the fall of babylon the great many years after the actuall babylon fell, jerusalem falling to babylon was just a precursor to jerusalem falling to the romans, which was just a precursor to... (what now?

meh... is old age creeping upon me?

drew sagan

The level-1 stuff is mostly things you want to believe, the level-2 those you would not like to believe but are made to. Level-3 might contain the things the rank-and-file JWs are never supposed to know (about the history of the organization etc) but some of them learn to know.

Interesting idea about level-3. I think this might contain things such as the Elders book and letter collection, official legal policy, as well as teachings that are on the fringe. The typologies mentioned in this tread by AllTimeJeff probably are level-3 (many of these teachings were printed years ago, and few witnesses today have ever come in contact with them)

25

Why does every prophecy has to have two (or more) completions?

by teel in

you know the standard jw doctrine, babylon the great, fall of jerusalem, kingship of david, jonah's life you name it, it has to have a "bigger completion" later.

some of these are actually mentioned in the bible - jesus being the bigger jonah, revelations mentioning the fall of babylon the great many years after the actuall babylon fell, jerusalem falling to babylon was just a precursor to jerusalem falling to the romans, which was just a precursor to... (what now?

meh... is old age creeping upon me?

drew sagan

I totlly killed this thread....

6

Mark Ryden's YHWH

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

this must somehow fulfill another feature of the "composite sign" proving that the end is nigh.

http://dunedinschool.wordpress.com/2009/11/14/mark-ryden-sells-god-in-a-box/.

here is a review:.

drew sagan

I think its feeding off the all powerful gugu doll....

http://www.guism.com/guism/guism_main_page.html

6

Mark Ryden's YHWH

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

this must somehow fulfill another feature of the "composite sign" proving that the end is nigh.

http://dunedinschool.wordpress.com/2009/11/14/mark-ryden-sells-god-in-a-box/.

here is a review:.

drew sagan

Very funny. Coming in at around $180 for the vinly sculpture, it seems to be a rich man's flying spaghetti monster.

25

Why does every prophecy has to have two (or more) completions?

by teel in

you know the standard jw doctrine, babylon the great, fall of jerusalem, kingship of david, jonah's life you name it, it has to have a "bigger completion" later.

some of these are actually mentioned in the bible - jesus being the bigger jonah, revelations mentioning the fall of babylon the great many years after the actuall babylon fell, jerusalem falling to babylon was just a precursor to jerusalem falling to the romans, which was just a precursor to... (what now?

meh... is old age creeping upon me?

drew sagan

I understand how somebody raised in the faith might have that elevated a view of their own importance, but I've often wondered why it does not strike a prospective convert (i.e. A Bible study) as improbable.

Excellent question.

My own conclusion has been to view Watchtower rhetoric as a dichotomy, something that can be refered to (for convience) as "level-1" and "level-2".

Level-1 rhetoric consists of Watchtower arguments and evidence that primarily function as non-artificial proofs. "Evidence" is provided that lays a framework for a comprehensive belief that appears to be rooted in logic. This is a large category that contains both recycled arguments borrowed from other christian sects (e.g. "circle of the earth" in Job) as well as JW specific arguments (e.g. no hellfire, Jehovah's name, bread pan illustration, etc.). This "canon" of arguments and evidence does not refer in any way to the Watchtowers view of itself. A great example is the 'What Does the Bible Really Teach' booklet used to study with potential converts. This book does not even mention the faithful slave doctrine.

Level-2 knowledge consists of the more elaborate, fantastic, self centered rhetoric advanced by the group. As a convert (around the age of 15/16) I can tell you that I specifically remember some of these things bothering me. However, when you first get involved there is a strong emphasis on level-1 knowledge. You are told that you will "understand things in time". A person who converts (such as myself) eventually supresses their dobuts about the level-2 stuff in light of the "truth" of the level-1 information.

In my own experience I remember the first time I had the faithful slave doctrine explained to me. I had already been going to meetings for well over a year and a half, but had no idea what it was! Even after explanation I was confused. I learned to accept this over time, but not in the same way that I accepted arguments about the name Jehovah, hellfire, paradise earth, etc. I feel that I accepted level-2 teachings almost by concession (i.e. because I could not prove level-1 wrong, level-2 had to be correct).

An intersting thing to note: My wife who was grew up JW never had the same attachment that I did to level-1 information. Instead, she picked things up randomly, as all kids do. During our exit, I spent a great deal of time proving wrong every single argument the JWs had told me. My wife could have cared less. As soon as she realized that the WTS played games, she walked away. She had no desire to do all of the reading that I did (I don't think she even finished Ray Franz's second book). I know other ex-jws (who grew up in the faith) that walked away in a simliar way. So there is a blurring effect, creating a situation where people who grow up in the religion don't recieve the same effects that converts get.